I'm back after suddenly having to move to the middle of nowhere for a few months and then nearly dying from flu complications and for reasons that make sense to no one I decided to crack out my Menoth. I've focused on Menoth in the past, in particular Kreoss1 and The High Reclaimer but this time I decided to focus on Feora2 and the Harbinger. I'm really loving this pairing, it seems incredibly strong against a lot of lists but I do see a significant weakness to Retribution. With CANCON signs ups opening recently I decided to play IG, it's only 4 rounds in a day instead of the ludicrous 6 round monster they insist on making masters (6 rounds in one day is too many rounds, with deathclock too instead of timed turns I feel like playing in it could be fatal). So I need a third list and with Ret being I think the only major hole in my pairings I starting looking for someone who could play against Ret.
What am I Worried About?
Menoth in particular is worried about Ossyan. Against Feora it feels like an automatic win and against Harbinger though it's not quite as bad there are a lot of things that can shoot at Harbinger. The fact is that at any point in the game against MHSF if the entire unit shoots at the Harbinger at full health she is at around 50-50 odds of dying. If she has martyred at all it gets even more in the ret players favour. If Ossyan can shoot at her too she's dead. Issyria too is a problem. Not as bad as Ossyan, Feora can maybe play through the match up, maybe but Harbinger is super dead. The last caster I am worried about is Ravyn. Though Ret players don't like her agaisnt Menoth for some reason she shuts down the Harbinger hard. She needs to stay back and not martyr which throws out her whole game plan. Feroa can play the match up depending on the list build. If she isn't built to take down heavies just having a colossal and two heavies may be enough to muscle through the match up. Flicking through the forums I saw that some Menoth players actually feel that Vyros2 is an issue but in general I could only pray that he's the caster they drop against that pairing.
So What do I Need?
I need a caster who can handle in particular Ossyan but also Issyria and Ravyn. And one who I can drop against at least some other thing in the game.
I started off looking at Kreoss3, in particular his theme force.
Pros: the list is super fast and hits like a truck. It's also highly accurate and does fairly well clearing out infantry.
Cons: Though Holy Ward helps a lot against Ossyan (he can't handle the combination of DEF and ARM) in the end it's trivial for him to remove ARM 19 models with 5 boxes. Issyria poses a similar problem, she doesn't hit quite as hard but does get around holy ward much better.
Next I went to Thyra
Pros: once again the list is super fast and gets in your face. Great against shooty things. It also has occultation which was previously massive against RET.
Cons: Issyria in particular has drastically reduced the effectiveness of occultation. It doesn't help that Ossyan and/or Ravyn probably has a unit of riflemen with a thane either. Ravyn is the one who was scaring me most for this match up though. I like Thyra with lighter infantry, in particular daughters and errants and her feat mulches them.
Lastly during a discussion about this with a local player he jokingly suggested that he was sure Vindictus must be the answer for some reason. I started to think about his feat and Sacrificial Pawn and started to think that it might actually work.
The List
So what I decided to do was build a list that screwed over as hard as possible Ret style shooting. So I'm looking at Invictors, Riflemen, MHSF, and Stormfall Archers. His feat does half the job, it gives me one turn where these guys can kill one of my models but will themselves die in retaliation. However one turn is not enough. It's a big help for sure but Ossyan/Issyria can just hold off their feats for a turn so the core of the list is designed to buy me an extra turn of advancing before I pop my feat.
Zealots with Monolith bearer - this one is obvious. the minifeat makes them invincible for a turn. After which they are probably close enough to start throwing grenades and still get feat protection.
Temple Flameguard with UA - The combination of Iron Zeal and shieldwall with an extra 2" advance is well known to khador players. In this case I can add defenders ward and set defence on top of that already impressive stack to ensure that I get one turn of an 8 point unit that is much harder to kill than is worth it.
Tristan with Redeemer - I need to be doing something to the ret player, preferably from as long a distance as possible. Vindictus is not going to be loaded with focus. He's blowing 4 every round upkeeping defenders ward and casting True Path so he can't feed it. Tristan however has no problem letting it take 3 shots with one boost or two shots with boosted damage. The one jack on Vindictus is a reckoner so that with aiming you can take the Redeemer to RAT 7 and actually let it do damage against heavy targets.
From there I'm kind of stuck. I have good infantry clearing and some decent heavy hitting (but not a lot). I'm pretty confident that it needs more heavy hitting which is why I initially played the list with A&H, Eiryss, Gorman, and two units of Knights Exemplar but the knights exemplar just aren't what the list needs. Bastions would be ideal but if I transfer damage on the feat turn it negates the feat. The Avatar also feels like a great addition except against Ossyan and Issyria. I feel like I'm giving them a model with a target painted over it. One that I can't hide. I feel like a feat to take out the Reckoner, Avatar and maybe the Redeemer as well is a feat well spent. What I have in the list right now are all the ARM debuffs and two exemplar seneschals. They should be easy enough to hide behind the other models pre feat turn and in an army with this many infantry can easily trigger restoration and rightous fury.
The big con of this list is that it doesn't like Rahn. I would have thought (though the only ret players I know disagree with me) that Rahn and Vyros2 would be less popular in this format because of the dead weight in their lists when it comes to 75 points but their strength and ability to play multiple match ups probably means that they will still show up. In an attempt to Rahn proof the list (and also because I had 2 points floating) I have included Orin Midwinter. I'm not sure I need him. Rahn is not a safe drop against Menoth. My Feora list includes a judicator and of course choir to put warding on all my jacks but it's the Harbinger list a Rahn player should be truly afraid of. That list not only has the book but both combat units cannot be targetted by spells and I have choir for the jacks. I can play an entirely spell immune army without taking into account the book.
So currently I have (and this is very, very likely to change):
System: Warmachine
Faction: Protectorate of Menoth
Casters: 1/1
Points: 50/50
Vice Scrutator Vindictus (*6pts)
* Reckoner (8pts)
Choir of Menoth (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Holy Zealots (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
* Holy Zealot Monolith Bearer (2pts)
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt (4pts)
Temple Flameguard (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
* Temple Flameguard Officer & Standard (2pts)
Anastasia di Bray (2pts)
Eiryss, Angel of Retribution (3pts)
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist (2pts)
Initiate Tristan Durant (3pts)
* Redeemer (6pts)
Knight Exemplar Seneschal (3pts)
Knight Exemplar Seneschal (3pts)
Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor (2pts)
Vassal of Menoth (2pts)
