Lylyth1 ADR

First things - there is officially a Thrullg in my Lylyth2 list. Body & Soul is becoming common enough that dodge, dip, duck, dive & dodge is becoming less of a real option but also I realised that I play Vayl1. I'm only ever going to drop Lylyth2 once, maybe twice if I come up against multiple EARTHBREAKERs (it has happened), I can afford to have 3 dead points in the list.

on to Lylyth

Lylyth, Herald of Everblight (*6pts)
* Naga Nightlurker (5pts)
* Shredder (2pts)
* Seraph (8pts)
* Typhon (12pts)
Blighted Nyss Hex Hunters (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
* Bayal, Hound of Everblight (3pts)
Strider Blightblades (Leader and 5 Grunts) (6pts)
Spawning Vessel (Leader and 5 Grunts) (3pts)
Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew (Leader and 1 Grunt) (1pts)
Blighted Nyss Shepherd (1pts)
Incubus (5pts)
The Forsaken (2pts)

Specialists
* Scythean (9pts)
* Scythean (9pts)
The Forsaken (2pts)

I have been playing a fair amount of this list in less competitive settings for the last couple of weeks. The list is legit, you could take it to a tournament. The question is always going to be though - does the specialists give you something that you couldn't get just playing Vayl1. I don't think it does.

Let's go through what it does do:

Hex hunters are bonkers with Lylyth1. The unit is already incredible for 8 points, boosting both attack rolls and adding parasite into the mix means that they will obliterate whatever they hit and with Ad and Spd 7 they are often in position to get an alpha strike. The Blight blades help a lot with this plan. When you are out-threatened you can bring the blight blades in from the side and in addition to killing things they are able to pin things in place and force your opponent to dedicated resources to them which then aren't going forwards.

The blight blades are absolute stars in this list. I heard some talk about them on muse on minis, about getting them in Lylyth's feat or Kallus' feat and dark guidance - it's not going to happen, especially with Lylyth. If the stars align you may be able to get a couple of them in your feat, take advantage of the critical grievous wounds on their weapons but more often you are better off putting the Hex hunters at the edge of your control area which will give you a few extra inches of distance for your caster. Def 15 is a problem, stealth can be a problem and even when you kill the blight blades you just create incubii. Not only that but it is difficult to avoid giving them targets. Much like in my Vayl1 list you are punished by clumping your models with Typhon and Bayal sprays, Seraph strafe etc. I believe the right choice is to spread your models but just to avoid giving them anything juicy. That said every game I have used them I have picked something up. UAs, solos, Holt... They are incredibly easy to forget. It's also easy to misjudge the 15ish inches they com in from the side. Then you have to take into account scenarios like incursion. Combining these guy with the Ad Hex hunters and the follow up of Typhon gives you a really strong scenario game.

Incubus - In theory they replace the blight blades but the Def 15/stealth/back field combination actually makes it so that the blight blades don't die that quickly. Often I end up replacing a mix of Hex hunters and blight blades. For some reason the hex hunters tend to die in droves although that might be because they do so much damage that your opponent just can't afford to keep them alive.

The Seraph and Naga are in theory support beasts but they actually do a whole lot of work in this list. With parasite they can kill a heavy at range, when you add in Typhon the ranged ability of this battlegroup is incredible if restricted in its range. Typhon should be self exlanatory. Free charges, parasite, additional dice sprays. You can boost on top of Lylyth's feat and he is just otherwise incredible.

Assassination - Typhon is the main assassination threat but there are a lot of other angles. Incubi pop out in odd positions, the Seraph is a legitimate threat, the Naga will reliably critical giving you 4 dice damage on living casters under Lylyth's feat. You can also get a lot of Hex Hunter shots if they are still alive. one thing people tend to not take into account well are the threat ranges you get from being able to battle wizard and/or cast spells at deeper targets while engaged. While the Spawning Vessel is on the table it is always a threat. One of the other things to remember is that you can hold her feat. If your opponent puts some Nyss Hunters or Blood Trackers in threat of your Hex hunters go for it but if you aren't facing high Def infantry you can hold the feat until you are ready to assassinate.

Scenario - It's a combination of the pressure from AD Hex hunters, the presence of the blight blades and incubi in the back field and the exceptional short rage damage output of the list. You don't really want to be coming into the threat ranges of this list and it's threat ranges are really good with slipstream and Spd 7 troops.

Keeping Lylyth alive - the most obvious piece for that are the swamp Gobbers and while they are alive they should be dropping a cloud in front of Lylyth. There are other pieces though most turns you will not "need" slipstream for your threat ranges, go forwards, feat and/or shoot and spell something and then once the Hex hunters have activated slipstream her back. The Seraph and Naga are also excellent pieces for blocking LOS and charge lanes since they are going to be making ranged attacks anyway. She should always have tenacity on her and you need to look for defensive terrain. Walls are ideal but it's incredibly rare to find them where you need them. A forest in the middle of the table is ideal but a hill will help, trenches are making comeback with the new terrain placement rules and are really good.

Modules:
Naga + Blightblades (11)
Hex Hunters (11)
Hex hunters + incubus + pot _ shepherd (20)
Blight Blades + Incubus (11)
Bayal + blight blades (9)

Discussing Warmachine Online

I'm really tired right now so I can't tell if this stroke of brilliance that I've just had is actually brilliant or just an actual stroke but here it goes anyway:

The reason why discussions of warmachine online are so toxic is because most of the participants aren't trying to have a discussion they are trying to "win" an argument.

It's something that we often get instinctively in person because it's kind of hard to ignore the fact at that point that you are talking to another person. That that person has an opinion and that ignoring that is a dick move. In person we try and understand where the person who disagrees with us is coming from. And then try to come to some kind of middle ground, something we at least vaguely agree on, or to come to the point where we go, yeah I understand your point but I disagree. It hit me when I was reading some posts on the MOM forums. I could see one poster in particular trying to characterise the opposing argument in the worst possible way and I was reading it and thinking - you're a moron, that's not going to accomplish anything but pissing people off. If you actually want to have a productive or useful discussion you need to try and see things from your opponents point of view, the issue is complex, they aren't 100% wrong and you 100% right. But that guy knows that, he isn't trying to have a real discussion he is just trying to "win" which means everyone loses.

If you have a discussion where everyone is looking for all the ways you are wrong, all the problems in each others positions you just get a bunch of hostility and entrenched bullshit.

If instead you have a discussion where you look for the things the people who disagree with you have right you can actually move forwards and you can actually have a real discussion. You move together and come to an agreement or at least you get to - this is where we disagree and I respect that.

I think the general format of forum discussions and online interaction promote the first kind of discussion and I think that in a lot of places the atmosphere has become so toxic as to cause people who want to have a real discussion to leave or cease joining in.

That's enough serious Tort for now. Here is Hans Moleman getting hit in the crotch with a football:

Current Legion Lists

Since I'm putting stuff up here again for the club league I thought I'd throw up my Legion lists.

I am currently all in on Vayl1 and I've been finding that she has a strong game against basically anything. Drop her against Cryx, against Khador, Mercs, whatever she can handle a lot of things. The main this she doesn't want to see is a lot of boostable guns. The earthbreaker is an issue but I have found that you can often scare off an earthbreaker player with your other list. I have yet to see an Ossrum player willing to drop that list against Lylyth2.

Vayl, Disciple of Everblight - WB: +6
-    Typhon - PC: 12
-    Scythean - PC: 9
-    Scythean - PC: 9
-    Shredder - PC: 2
-    Seraph - PC: 8
-    Naga Nightlurker - PC: 5

The Forsaken - PC: 2
The Forsaken - PC: 2
Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1

Strider Blightblades - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6

I love this list. It's tuned to kill everything within 9" of Vayl. The Blight blades are in my opinion a fantastic addition to the list. The Def 15 and stealth is such a huge deal and their ability to pick up important models your opponent thinks are safe is fantastic. I have been getting good use out of these even against better players mainly because you can't really afford to bunch up your army against Vayl.

Lylyth, Shadow of Everblight - WB: +5
-    Succubus
-    Ravagore - PC: 10
-    Ravagore - PC: 10
-    Zuriel - PC: 10
-    Naga Nightlurker - PC: 5
-    Shredder - PC: 2

Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1
Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1
Totem Hunter - PC: 3

Blighted Ogrun Warspears - Leader & 4 Grunts: 8
-    Warspear Chieftan - PC: 2
Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew - Leader & 1 Grunt: 1

This is a new thing I am trying out. I had been playing a list very similar to this but with the warspears out and striders in about 2 years ago (Zuriel was a third Ravagore). When I decided to cracking Lylyth2 out again I had a quick chat to Ben Leeper at CANCON and he said to try warspears. So far they have been pretty good. The aim problem I have is that I have become a Vayl1 player with an off list so this list isn't getting the work out it should have which I really need to do if I want to fine tune it for me. I've already had two significant feat failures and the fact is that Lylyth2 is still a caster who struggles if her feat does not go well.

Lylyth, Herald of Everblight (*6pts)
* Naga Nightlurker (5pts)
* Shredder (2pts)
* Seraph (8pts)
* Typhon (12pts)
Blighted Nyss Hex Hunters (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts) 

* Bayal, Hound of Everblight (3pts)
Strider Blightblades (Leader and 5 Grunts) (6pts)
Spawning Vessel (Leader and 5 Grunts) (3pts)
Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew (Leader and 1 Grunt) (1pts)
Blighted Nyss Shepherd (1pts)
Incubus (5pts)
The Forsaken (2pts)

Specialists
* Scythean (9pts)
* Scythean (9pts)
The Forsaken (2pts)

I always liked Lylyth1 and with ADR becoming a thing I have been mucking around with her trying to find a list I like. I think this is it. You need to be able to keep Lylyth alive which is harder than it looks but her feat turns are incredibly brutal. The specialists are transformative, I can bring in one Scythean or double, the Hex hunters + Thrullg making a great one Scythean sub or Thrullg + blight blades or go for the double swap and take out the infantry to throw in a beast brick. The Naga can also go with a bit of infantry. I really like it I just need to make a Thagrosh1 list that I like to pair it with which is harder said than done. The latest change I am comptemplating is Bayal out for a thrullg. It makes Lylyth my drop against body and soul but I am fine with that. This list is amazing, Lylyth1 is a blast to play and ADR does so much for her.

Thagrosh, Prophet of Everblight (*5pts)

* Naga Nightlurker (5pts)

* Shredder (2pts)

* Carnivean (11pts)

* Scythean (9pts)

* Scythean (9pts)

Sacral Vault (9pts)

Sacral Vault (9pts)

Blighted Nyss Shepherd (1pts)

Specialists

Blighted Ogrun Warspears (Leader and 4 Grunts) (8pts)

* Warspear Chieftan (2pts)

Blighted Nyss Shepherd (1pts)

Strider Deathstalker (2pts)

Strider Deathstalker (2pts)

Forsaken (2pts)

Thrullg (3pts)

I fucking hate this list. I can make decent 50 point lists for Thagrosh1 but they have glaring weaknesses. I don't want to play against a lot of RFP, multi wound, Haley2, Body & Soul... Whatever. You'd think that you could use ADR to fix the weaknesses but you just can't. I want a Naga I want a Thrullg, I want to be able to go beast heavy to be able to power my way through Haley2, I want to be able to sub out the carnivean for infantry. I feel like I've tried to make a list to handle everything and I've ended up with a list that is shit against everything. Expect this list to change. 

Thagrosh, the Messiah - WB: +3
-    Raek - PC: 4
-    Raek - PC: 4
-    Scythean - PC: 9
-    Scythean - PC: 9

-    Scythean - PC: 9
-    Shredder - PC: 2

The Forsaken - PC: 2
The Forsaken - PC: 2

Blighted Nyss Legionnaires - Leader & 9 Grunts: 6
-    Captain Farilor & Standard - Farilor & Standard 3
Spawning Vessel - Vessel & 6 Grunts: 3

Manifest destiny is amazing on Scytheans. The basics of the list are that I put the legionnaires in front of the beasts with Dragons Blood and minifeat to give me board position then the beasts go in and kill everything, I use the feat to pull back and generally jam a raek or two into anything important (with tenacity). I'm enjoying it. It might need a Seraph but I am very hesitant to make that change because without Incite or Parasite and Lylyth's feat the Seraph really struggles to do stuff. 

Anyway that's what I am currently playing. There is a strong temptation to go back to Vayl2 as a pair for Vayl1 but I don't feel like she is particularly strong in the current meta and I don't have the confidence I used to have in her.

Some lists I intend to try out:

Kallus, Wrath of Everblight (*5pts)
* Ravagore (10pts)* Ravagore (10pts)Blighted Ogrun Warmongers (Leader and 4 Grunts) (8pts)Blighted Ogrun Warspears (Leader and 4 Grunts) (8pts)* Warspear Chieftan (2pts)Blighted Ogrun Warspears (Leader and 4 Grunts) (8pts)* Warspear Chieftan (2pts)Spawning Vessel (Leader and 5 Grunts) (3pts)Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew (Leader and 1 Grunt) (1pts)Blighted Nyss Shepherd (1pts)Succubus (2pts)

Last time I tried playing Kallus seriously the warspear UA did not exist. Also Farilor did not exist I feel like the warspears being bigger threats might actually let the warmongers get some work done. That said there is a good chance that the unit becomes Farilor and Legionnaires. I do want to at least try the Warmongers again though. 

Absylona 2
 - Succubus
 - Carnivean
 - Ravagore x 2
 - Zuriel
 - Shredder x 2
Forsaken
Shepherd x 2

Deathstalker x 2

Another list that I hate. Here is the problem - so much of the list is predicated on Abby getting to charge and kill something and when your opponent just leaves their infantry 13" away from her the list is garbage. I really hate the Seraph when casters do nothing for it. It's amazing with Lylyth1 and Vayl1 but put it in this list and it's going to what - charge and be garbage pow? Put out some rat 5 pow 12s? I may give this list some more game time, I did win the one game I played with it but that's because my opponent failed to kill Zuriel and it turns out when Zuriel is SPD 8, has reach, is MAT 9 and POW 18 he will kill casters.

Rhyas, Sigil of Everblight (*6pts)
* Raek (4pts)
* Shredder (2pts)
* Typhon (12pts)
Blighted Nyss Swordsmen (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
* Blighted Nyss Swordsmen Abbot & Champion (0pts)
Blighted Ogrun Warmongers (Leader and 4 Grunts) (8pts)
Blighted Ogrun Warspears (Leader and 4 Grunts) (8pts)
* Warspear Chieftan (2pts)
Blighted Ogrun Warspears (Leader and 4 Grunts) (8pts)
* Warspear Chieftan (2pts)
Succubus (2pts)

This one is tier 4 - you get free upkeeps (don't really care), free Swordsmen UA, stealth turn 1 (semi relevant because of the next one) advance deploy Ogrun.

League Points

Ed 2* - levitation
Theo 6
Anthony 9 - assassins cloak
Uli 6
Graham 5 - stone cold
Harry 7*

Waiting on the result from Harry and Ed as Ed was playing at Ed speed. That was 2 and a half hours ago though so the game may have finished by now.

Thoughts on the Game

A brief one this time. 

Clean Play document - John had this idea that if you set community standards so that everyone always played by the letter of the rules with the strictest interpretation and no forgiveness of errors then people would not assume other people were jerks for playing like that (as happened at the WTC in some games). This is among the dumbest sentiments I have ever heard expressed out loud (particularly if you include that he doesn't want it at most tournaments but still wants it to become a community standard that everyone is used to). Thankfully there were more than a few people who argued that maybe you should just talk to your opponent so you are both on the same page with that stuff. I hope this doesn't get made. 

Legion and the evolving meta - I feel like the meta is evolving away from Saeryn at the moment. Actually I feel like it's been happening for years but she was so strong it has taken until now for me to start thinking that its time to take her out of my tournament roster. Years ago I felt like I could drop her in almost any match up and now she seems to be standing on rapidly shrinking grounds. The new Skorne bugs are going to put that match up out of her reach and warders have made trolls a difficult proposition for her. I have been already moving in the direction of Vayl1 and Thagrosh1 as a replacement but the WTC guys have been talking about Thagrosh2 and he is another contender for that spot. I also think it might be time to have another look at Kallus.

8 wound infantry - are currently big in the meta and the sacral vault I think is going to improve them again when it comes out. I think as a player you need to be ahead of the curve, find ways of killing multi wound infantry in a way that puts you ahead. Press Gang are great for this because they are so cheap. MOM-Miami were talking about this and I think they missed the main points. You get 20 for 12 points which is 6-8 multiwound guys, they have tough and fearless, Hawk is hard to snipe out because she has sucker. It's almost impossible to trade favourably with multi wound infantry against them. Other things I made a change to my Harbinger list and now I have a unit of Hammer dwarves with attendant priest precisely for these kinds of lists, they replaced the battle engine and mechanic as with the reduction of single wound infantry the battle engine is losing stock. However I don't predict this to be a sustained trend. One of the reasons Fist of Halaak is so popular is because Skorne had problem match ups it helped with, the bugs change that equation. Warders are really good but they compete with runes of war for list space and are solved by a lot of the same lists. Morv2 lists are moving away from my favoured style of multi wound spam, I know I was thinking about trading out a multi wound unit for blood trackers and it is a change a lot of people have made. 

Exigence - I think there are only two dead releases in the book, the legion beast pack and the circle character heavy. The skorne beast pack still aren't great but there are interesting things you can do with them thanks to snacking and their animus and Skorne beast support. Skorne and Circle picked up game changing models in the circle lessers and the Skorne bug heavies. Trolls and Legion I think got more of the same but it was really good. I'm currently the most excited for Jaga Jaga. 

Spell Draft - I really like this format. I like the drafting process and the way you play your list changes so much with the spells you get. If there is a downside it's that it is really easy to forget a key spell your opponent has and get assassinated. I might even suggest building a list for that purpose. 

Conceding Pt 2

I wrote a piece on it last week so it's worth updating it with the Muse response.

http://museonminis.com/forums/index.php?topic=4349.0

To sum up - Team Muse now has a new policy whereby they ask everyone of their members to play each game to the best of their ability.

This is a very good response.

Good points

1. No one is policing games
2. It only affects members of the muse team
3. They are asked only to do their best
4. They are hoping to change values in the community through a community driven effort rather than a top down rules change

Bad Points

It gives "scooping" recognition as an issue when I'm not sure that it is one.

What about me? 
I'm going to keep playing the way I have. In practice the difference between letting people you like correct errors they have made and letting people you like beat you is not that big but I think it is one accepted by the community. I think a lot has to do with the way we players who live by that policy tend to apply it to everyone who doesn't shit us. I think that the difference might be that you are still playing to 100% which might be a fair thing to ask players to do. As a TO it is actually all I want, I would not want to ask people to avoid giving take backs or anything of that nature and I would be happy to see that the few jerks who occasionally come to tournaments get worse treatment than the regular friendly people.

My thinking on this issue still isn't 100% clear so I may come back to it when I have developed a proper philosophy on it.

Douchebags in the Hobby

OK this is something that has been rattling around in my head for a while now and was brought to the fore by the horrible responses in this thread.

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?212651-Request-Gender-neutral-Rules-Please

So first off it should go without saying but there are 3 people in this thread who I think behaved in a matter acceptable for human beings; the OP, Stepfan and PPS_Simon.

I really wanted to give Nick from the Texas Renegades (the only name I recognised on the thread) a pass but he's the first person to claim that the OP is accusing PP of sexism and misogyny. That's not OK.

This is quite possibly the best request type post that I have ever seen on the forums and the responses among the worst. I have seen a thread that was nothing but the original poster complaining about how OP Venethrax was and demanding PP nerf him immediately or he would leave the hobby and the responses to that thread were mostly advice on how to win that match up. No one belittling the OP despite the fact that he was clearly an idiot.

So this is happening all over the place, women are trying to exist without harassment and dismissal. That's not what this thread started as but the thread shows what is happening to women on the internet and if I'm honest offline too.

The question is how is this going to affect PP, can we get rid of the dickheads or will PP become infested with them? I think sadly that as things stand it might be the second one. It seems to me that the signals PP is sending out are less that this is a safe space for women and more that this is a safe space for misogynist arseholes.

I think the biggest thing is sexualised female models. In particular it's the convention exclusive sculpts. The Bombshell Bombardier, the blighted bather, the druid gone wilder, the steelsoul keg protector. Every single convention exclusive is female and sexualised. Even the friggin robot.  It sends a message about who the game is for and about who the game isn't for.

The PP range also has a very large amount of sexualised female sculpts. There is a lot of female clevage on display, there is a lot of boob plate, there are a lot of female sculpts with high heels for some reason.

her heels give additional traction on the ice

Fluff wise there were a lot of sexist tropes in the early story line of the game but  PP has gotten better at that (at least with what I have noticed). 

I think the telling thing will be the community. There are some loud feminist voices in the community, Simon at PP is one and I applaud him for it. There is also Chad at muse on minis and the Irish Warmachine guys in particular Anto and Stu. However there are still a lot of misogynistic slurs that are used in the community as names for models and which are bandied around pretty freely. I already called out one guy on a podcast lets go all in, the Chain Attack guys use a lot of unacceptable gendered language, and Emmanuel Class from RFP thought that this was an acceptable way to advertise shirts for the WTC fun raiser.

These things are not OK, these things are fomenting the boys club, anti women attitude in the community. At the moment I feel like the hate directed at women in the community is overpowering the good things. 

I hope that the community is less shithead than I think it is, I hope that we get past this and the warmachine community becomes a safe space for women. 

Sorry I'm so down at the moment but this is really depressing to me. I don't want to leave warmachine but I don't want to stay in a community filled with this kind of stuff.

JagaJaga

This is just a quick one. I'm still working my head around the exigence releases but I do want to talk about Jaga Jaga and the spectral vault.

JJ is on paper an excellent cryx drop except for the existence of the blood hag. The spectral vaults completely fix that with eyeless sight and magical attacks, boostable with rapid fire. They are also immune to single wound infantry. 

My starting position is to take 2 in a JJ list. This pushes me towards the theme force as tier 1 drops their cost. Tier 2 however requires 3 undead models/units. The first one is easy, take a unit of Shamblers, however the second and third undead models currently have to be Boneswarms and they are just bad (sorry Boneswarms). The only other thing required for tier 4 would be a witch doc croc, I actually don't want a witch doc croc in this list, the Sacral Vaults need living units as does the shambler unit you need for tier2. That said the theme force is so unrestrictive that the list I made is tier1 anyway and gives me two more points.

Jaga-Jaga, the Death Charmer - WB: +5
- Bull Snapper - PC: 3
- Blackhide Wrastler - PC: 9
- Bull Snapper - PC: 3

Sacral Vault - PC: 9
Sacral Vault - PC: 9

Gatorman Posse - Leader & 4 Grunts: 9
Gatorman Bokor & Bog Trog Swamp Shamblers - Bokor & 9 Shamblers: 6
Gatorman Posse - Leader & 4 Grunts: 9

Annoyingly the theme force bonuses are not working.

Anyway if anyone remembers I did spend a lot of time earlier in the year trying to work out a pair for Rask that was not Maelok. I think now I have it though I really wish I had a good gator ranged unit, not like Brigands, a good one. 

On Conceding

A couple weeks ago Keith Christiansen played Tom Guan in the semi final of a warmachine weekend qualifier. Tom had already qualified but Keith had not only not qualified but had missed out on a ticket to the now sold out event. So he could not play in the last chance qualifier or any of the other events. Tom decided to concede and Keith ended up winning the final. This led to a rather toxic discussion on the Muse boards and I want a place where I can organise my thoughts on the issue because it is kind of complicated.

So there are two main ideas that are guiding my thoughts on this matter. 1. If I don't want to play a game I shouldn't have to play a game, whether that's because I have a pounding headache or because I don't want to dream crush a friend, if I don't want to play I shouldn't have to and even more importantly I don't want people looking over my shoulder telling me that I'm not playing my hardest. 2. Conceding is not something that should be encouraged because it's not a good look for other players in the comp especially if it is done to advantage another player. We should be trying to discourage it.

I'm going to veer off into a related topic as I have never really made an effort to qualify for the super series (Australia's Warmachine Weekend), I just play in as many events as I can. I do however have a history of helping out some players during games. So for example I once played a tournament game against a new player I liked. I had just met him but we were having an enjoyable chat about the game prior to the match. I was winning and he decided to go for the assassination. Had a shot with his Banshee and missed, then moved Ossyan into the wrong position to try and shoot as well. He didn't have LOS because of a forest but there was another knocked down model he could have shot through had he walked a couple inches the other direction. I told him about that and he moved Ossyan to the new position, hit and killed Styker (in fairness it was a Mage Hunter Assassin that killed Stryker but he would have missed without the DEF debuff). I was 100% happy with the outcome, it was a fun game and I think I taught a new player something. Here is the thing - I won't do that for everyone. If you shit me, I'm not giving you anything, in fact I'm going to be very tight on the rules. Or if I just don't know you, I'm less likely to help you out, particularly in a tournament game.

So I do arbitrarily advantage players I like and lets face it if I was in the same situation as Tom Guan I would not have wanted to win that match, I probably would have done a similar thing. Is that bad? Am I wrong? I don't know. As far as how I would handle it as a TO, I don't want to see it but I also don't want to interfere in games and I don't want to tell people how to play. I said on the muse thread that I would not penalise anyone for conceding but that I would throw one of my shoes at them. I stand by this.

Terrible Jank

Firstly a continuation in the adventures of Vindictus. I think the list is settled (with the Avatar). I am finding that the list is strong against Khador as well as Ret but more experience is needed. The Avatar is amazing. I don't understand at all people who complain about how he is bad because you occasionally roll 2 focus. Only once so far have I needed it to kill an undamaged heavy without assassitance, an enraged bronzeback had charged the Avatar after pinning it had been pinned in place with revived nihilators and it had survived, it rolled two focus and killed the bronzeback from full. Any other warjack would have lost it's cortex. In my game today it killed one iron fang pikeman and won the game with gaze behind some invincible zealots allowing me to score a zone on my opponents turn. In hindsight there was a play my opponent had to get into the zone but it involved running a heavy jack right in front of the avatar and a reckoner in order to block LOS to two pikemen which could then move into my zone. Not an ideal play.

On to today's topic. This page is a repository for the awful lists I have been dojoing of late, in particular the 35 point ones for the monthly Friday Night Warmachine events I have been running.

Bad Seeds

Magnus the Warlord - WJ: +6
- Renegade - PC: 6
- Renegade - PC: 6

Kell Bailoch - PC: 0
Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor - PC: 2
Trencher Master Gunner - PC: 2
Saxon Orrik - PC: 2

Rangers - Leader and 5 Grunts: 5
Sword Knights - Leader and 9 Grunts: 6
- Sword Knight Officer & Standard - PC: 2
- Talon - PC: 4
Sword Knights - Leader and 9 Grunts: 6

THEME: Bad Seeds - Tier 4

I'm not sure that this list is playable at 35 points. The sword knights without UA can ambush which is sweet, there is a legitimate assassination threat from the double Renegades with rangers and a Trencher Master Gunner but it would be a lot lot stronger with a defender there for a third boosted damage roll. 

Constance Blaize

Constance Blaize, Knight of the Prophet - WJ: +6
- Gallant - PC: 9

Archduke Alain Runewood, Lord of Fharin - PC: 3
Journeyman Warcaster - PC: 3
Harlan Versh, Illuminated One - PC: 2

Precursor Knights - Leader & 9 Grunts: 8
- Precursor Knight Officer & Standard Bearer - PC: 0
Sword Knights - Leader & 9 Grunts: 6
Precursor Knights - Leader & 9 Grunts: 8
- Precursor Knight Officer & Standard Bearer - PC: 2

THEME: Army of Light - Tier 4

This list I am sure is playable at 35 and I think is really strong. It jams like a boss (see theme force bonuses) and the infantry hits really hard. 

Fiona the Black

Fiona the Black - WJ: +6
- Rocinante - PC: 9

Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios - PC: 3
Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord - PC: 2
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist - PC: 2

Alexia Ciannor & the Risen - Alexia & 9 Risen Grunts: 5
- Thrall Warrior - PC: 0
Kayazy Assassins - Mercenaries - Leader & 9 Grunts: 8
- Kayazy Assassin Underboss - Mercenaries - PC: 2
Kayazy Eliminators - Mercenaries - Leader & Grunt: 3
Kayazy Eliminators - Mercenaries - Leader & Grunt: 3
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt - Lady Aiyanna & Master Holt: 4

This is another list I think is on to a winner. Fiona's feat with Kayazy is really strong and this list has a strong sustained assassination threat with a lot of angles. 

Kreoss3

Intercessor Kreoss - WJ: +5
- Reckoner - PC: 8
- Repenter - PC: 4

Vassal of Menoth - PC: 2
Vassal of Menoth - PC: 2

Exemplar Vengers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 11
Exemplar Vengers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 11
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 2

Horses are fun. With Kreoss the Vengers are really good. I don't have much else to say about this list, it is simple, low model count but effective. 

Ossrum's Eleven

General Ossrum - WJ: +5
- Ghordson Earthbreaker - PC: 19

Eiryss, Angel of Retribution - PC: 3
Taryn di la Rovissi, Llaelese Gun Mage - PC: 2
Gobber Tinker - PC: 1
Thor Steinhammer - PC: 2
Master Gunner Dougal MacNaile - PC: 2
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist - PC: 2
Harlan Versh, Illuminated One - PC: 2

Herne & Jonne - Herne and Jonne: 3
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt - Lady Aiyanna & Master Holt: 4

I think this might be the most fun list I have ever written. There are 11 character models, there are synergies all over the place and a strong assassination threat. I just love this list. 

Bradigus

Bradigus Thorle the Runecarver - WB: +6
- Woldwatcher - PC: 5
- Woldwatcher - PC: 5
- Woldwatcher - PC: 5
- Woldwatcher - PC: 5
- Woldwatcher - PC: 5
- Woldwatcher - PC: 5
- Woldwatcher - PC: 5

Blackclad Wayfarer - PC: 2

Shifting Stones - Leader & 2 Grunts: 2
Shifting Stones - Leader & 2 Grunts: 2

I am not sold on Bradigus. He might be awful at all points levels. That said he might be a good legion pairing. 35 points is even worse than 50 points, this might be unplayable. 

Kaya - Shoot to Thrill

Kaya the Wildborne - WB: +6
- Argus Moonhound - PC: 4
- Argus Moonhound - PC: 4

Viktor Pendrake - PC: 2
Gallows Grove - PC: 1

Druid Stoneward & Woldstalkers - Leader & 5 Grunts: 5
Druid Stoneward & Woldstalkers - Leader & 5 Grunts: 5
Tharn Bloodtrackers - Leader & 9 Grunts: 8
- Nuala the Huntress - Nuala 2
Tharn Blood Pack - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10

I know this list is stronger if I drop one of the three 10 point shooting options I have here for a Stalker and change one Moonhound for a Gorax but I don't wanna. I'm not sure I can kill a heavy but man will this list shoot like a boss. It's probably the Blood Pack that has to go, I might even end up dropping Pendrake and the Grove for a Witch Doc Croc for the Bloodtrackers. That list is so much more bland that this one though. I may try it like it is. 

Saeryn - Flying Circus

Saeryn, Omen of Everblight - WB: +5
- Angelius - PC: 9
- Angelius - PC: 9
- Nephilim Bloodseer - PC: 5
- Nephilim Bolt Thrower - PC: 6
- Nephilim Protector - PC: 5
- Nephilim Bolt Thrower - PC: 0

Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion - PC: 4
Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1
Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1

THEME: Fallen Angels - Tier 4

I like this list. I really wish I could put in spell martyrs but literallt the only points that are not required for the theme force are the two shepherds which are indispensable. The only way I can get in a spell martyr is to drop a bolt thrower for a different Nephilim (and maybe two bloodseers is not awful). 

Feora1

Feora, Priestess of the Flame - WJ: +6
- Hierophant
- Reckoner - PC: 8
- Reckoner - PC: 8

Avatar of Menoth - PC: 11

Vassal of Menoth - PC: 2
Vassal of Menoth - PC: 2
Wrack - PC: 1

Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 2
Daughters of the Flame - Leader & 5 Grunts: 5

So the thinking here is that Feora deals OK with infantry by herself and has a strong end game so is pretty good at 35 points with an army that can crack ARM. I don't know how well I will go at keeping Feora alive but this list is worth a shot. 

New Arkadius Theme Force

There is a new Arkadius theme force that I intend to play the hell out of. I'm still down on minions, despite investing a lot of play effort I never found another caster I liked as much as Rask or that I felt was an excellent pair for him (I know that Rask/Maelok is popular but it doesn't quite sit right with me). I don't think this will change my opinion too much since the weaknesses of the list look pretty similar but I will give it a lot of game time. The theme force is:

You can take:
Non-character Warbeasts, Bone Grinders, Slaughterhousers and Targ
Comments: That looks ultra restrictive but there are no character warbeasts. There are two units disallowed - Brigands which are garbage without CRA (and not that great with it) and Razorback weapons crews. As for solos you miss out on Alten Ashley (don't care), Gudrun (don't care), Raluk Moorclaw (don't care) and the three things that might matter in some way - Pendrake, Saxon Orik and Rorsh and Brine. So not taking those three is the extent of the theme force restrictions.

Tier1
Requires - only bring the tier stuff
Reward - you can take Goraxs and they get shield guard.
Comments: A 4 point light with primal for an animus (+2 to hit and damage and you frenzy next turn) with 4 fury that actually fights quite well in melee and now gains shield guard. Already this theme force is amazing

Tier2
Requires - Targ
Reward - Deployment extended by 2"
Comments: Targ is not the greatest caster attachment in the world but he is the only one available. He does have some useful abilities and is probably worth 2 points, espcially if you have a road hog.

Tier3
Requires - 5 Warbeasts
Reward - for every Road Hog, War Hog or Gun Boar you get a free Razor Boar.
Comments - Holy shit this is an amazing reward. Alright this is kind of restictivish but you were going to take a Gorax anyway and they count and then you probably want a couple of heavies to put Primal on so really you are only forced to take 1-2 beasts more than the absolute minimum you want in the list and every beast coming with a Razor Boar is an insanely good reward.

Tier4
Requires - 2 Goraxs
Reward - your beasts run for free turn 1
Commends: this lets you get your beasts up the board. Turn 2 you are probably using the feat to get threat range on your opponent or you don't have to run some things but turn1 you can now get everything up the board without having fury issues. As for the cost the Gorax is an amazing beast without shield guard. With a caster as squishy as Arkadius, with Forced Evo a good defensive buff that Eiryss will want to shoot off, with wanting to get forwards to land Crippling Grasp on your opponents stuff taking two shield guards that also fight wonderfully well that can be shield guarded to and hyper agressive and then charge for free with primal and forced evolution - the requirement is again almost nothing and the reward amazing.

My first draft of the list is
Arkadius
2x Road Hog
3x War Hog
5x Free Razor Boars
2x Gorax
Targ
2x Min Bonegrinders

10 points of free models. Heavies that will kill what they hit and bonegrinders to extend the range of crippling grasp and forced evolution. I'm happy with this list. I think it's good and it's in pigs. This is not something I have felt often before.

Useless WTC stats part VI

Bastions and the Seneschal
This one stood out for me and is why I decided to keep spewing spurious bullshit. There are 23 units of Bastions and only one Seneschal. This seems weird to me.

Where are the Bastions?
There are two units in a Vindictus list which I have mentioned that I don't like because of the skornergy with the feat. That might just be me though, I'm working on super secret Vindictus tech.

12 units are in High Reclaimer lists. This is no great shock. You can bring them back on full health which is good. Plus they can charge on that turn and put a blessed weaponmaster attack into something you don't like the look of. 4 lists are double Bastions, 4 lists are single Bastions. There are 8 total high Reclaimer lists so no one is taking him without Bastions.

Next there are 3 Harbinger lists with double Bastions. There is the obvious synergy with martyrdom and the Bastion ability to share damage when you can heal with the Seneschal as well and this is where we see the one lonely Seneschal at the WTC. It's in Denmark Red, for those following Big Deno's twitter that's the Denmark team that isn't mad at him. Here is the list:

Harbinger 1
Harbinger -5
Devout +5
Hierophant +2
Vessel of Judgement +9
Exemplar Bastions (max) +8
Exemplar Bastions (max) +8
Exemplar Errants (max) +8
Exemplar Errant UA +2
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt +4
Exemplar Bastion Seneschal +3
Rhupert Carvolo +2
The Covenant of Menoth +2
The Wrack +1
Vassal Mechanik +1

No jacks on Harbinger for max camping/healing, devout for spell imunity, Rhupert and the Book, Heirophant and wracks. Bastions add ARM cracking to the list. It's a strong attrition list and I like it.

Last but not least (that honour goes to Vindictus) there are two Kreoss2 theme forces with Bastions. One with double Bastions and one with a single unit. I don't really like either of them (sorry Kreoss2 players). Both lists have Errants to help with the lack of pathfinder in the list and one list has Vengers but they are a min unit. Not a fan of min Vengers (they are alright I guess but I like to be able to trigger battle driven).

Next Raeks, also a second mention of Deno as I want to quote him on Raeks - "Fucking Def16 raeks. Bullshit"

There are 24 Raeks.
Thagrosh2 9 (two singles, two doubles and a triple)
Saeryn 7 (all single)
Lylyth2 1
Vayl2 6 (3 doubles)
Thagrosh1 1

Single 11
Doubles 5
Tripple1

The double Raek in Vayl2 lists generally takes the place of a unit of infantry. They are very difficult to get through being DEF 16 and stealth and they have massive threat range, reach and the ability to jump and knockdown is incredible for assassinations. Jump is also amazing just for killing key solos. In Thagrosh2 there are a couple of benefits in addition to what they normally do. First they are amazing with Manifest Destiny, they can get to silly positions with the feat, and parry (the Raek animus) is really good on Thagrosh himself as he has flight. They ability to fly over things without taking free strikes can really open up what he can do late game. Raeks are sweet and more people should play them.

Horgle Ironstrike - There are 3 Horgles. All with a Slag Troll. One in Grim1 and two in Grim2. I really like Horgle in Grim2 and he is in every Grim2 list. Free snipe and plus 2 to hit on the Slag Troll is pretty amazing. I want to highlight another list this one from Italy Blue:

Grim 2 -4
Troll Impaler +5
Dire Troll Bomber +10
Runebearer +2
Krielstone (max) +4
Stone Scribe Elder +1
Pyg Burrowers (max) +6
Scattergunners (max) +8
Scattergunner UA +2
Horgle Ironstrike +3
Slag Troll +6
Dahlia & Skarath +9

Honestly I don't even know what Dahlia is doing here but I'm excited about it. (She might be good against Butcher3 but she has additional synergies with Grim1 which is why she's good in that list).

There are two Zaadeshs in the WTC. One is in a Makeda2 list, he has an archidon and there is a willbreaker in the list. This looks to me to be a straight up assassination thing but it could be a way to spam sprint (seems a bit expensive/risky for that). Molik Karn is in the list too.

The other is in a Morghoul1 list.
Morghoul 1 -7
Basilisk Krea +4
Molik Karn +11
Titan Gladiator +8
Cataphract Incindiarii (min) +6
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) +2
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) +2
Swamp Gobbers +1
Agonizer +2
Orin Midwinter +2
Tyrant Zaadesh +3
Cyclops Shaman +5
Tiberion +11

I like it. It's super risky to have so many points on him and there is no willbreaker but you can put abuse on Tiberion and with tag team and rush he is much faster than people will expect and hits rather ludicrously hard. Then there is an agoniser behind him and he's probably in a Krea bubble and maybe Morghoul's feat is up there is also a swamp gobber cloud (but Morghoul should probably have some of the defensive tech in the list). Also this looks like double Butcher tech. You can't pull in Tibbers and you have Orin Midwinter.

There are two Thrullgs but they are both in Barnabus lists so I'm going to skip over them.

There are 6 Blackfrost Shards. Two Thagrosh1s, two Saeryns, 1 Bethayne and one Vayl2. The two Thagrosh lists are designed to really crank the damage, in Saeryn it's not so much to crank the damage to 11 as to just deal with some of the things legion can struggle with (like agonisers behind Tiberion). Bethayne has the feat synergy and Vayl has some interesting synergies with them. I played a fair amount of the blackfrost shard with Vayl2 and the list is double Angel Scythean (though with a Seraph instead of two Ravagores like I played).

Vayl 2 -6
Angelius +9
Angelius +9
Ravagore +10
Scythean +9
Seraph +8
Blackfrost Shard +5
Blighted Nyss Legionnaires (max) +6
Spawning Vessel (max) +3
Shepherd +1
Shepherd +1

They really turn on the Seraph, if you hit with an ice cage, a kiss and use the last guy to make the unit stealth the Seraph becomes RAT 7 POW 14 with Strafe. Roll 4 shots and it might blow a heavy off the table by itself. Even two shots will hurt. Other than the Seraph the BFS does interesting things with Vayl. A lot of her damage output comes from Angels and while kiss does the less for Angels than any other beast it is model/unit which really cranks up the blast damage from her obliterates. You can also stack Ice Cage and Icy Grip, you boost Icy Grip first, then the BFS are essentially magic ability 9, if you land the ice cage then the model with kiss is essentially magic ability 11 and much more likely to hit. -4 DEF and -2 ARM is usually a death sentence for most things. Lastly if you keep them alive your Ravagore (with my list Ravagores) becomes a melee threat if your opponent closes. MAT 5 P+S 16 is kind of mopey but MAT 7 P+S 18 with two initials and 4 fury will kill an average heavy. I ended up moving away from the BFS because I struggled to keep them alive after one turn of affecting the game but Petr Cermak  of the Czech Republic is probably better than me.

Next Nephilim. Not the Bolt Throwers, the shit ones. There are two other Nephilim a Blood Seer and a Protector. The Blood Seer is in a Saeryn list with two Angels most likely acting as a cut price repulsion. The other is a Protector in Omnus' Absylonia2 list. I have not played her (I'm on a Menoth kick at the moment) but I think the Protector is a smart choice, it can prevent knockdown and shield guard her which helps her get forwards safely to trigger conferred rage.

Request for Theme Force Data.

So question 1 is anyone running Vayl2 out of theme?
Answer - No. So that's 25 theme forces right there. All tier 4.

There are 94 theme forces in total out of 520 lists. It's about 18%. Lets look at the other big theme forces though.

The other casters being played by multiple people with a 100% theme force record are:

Rasheth. with 5/5 Rasheth players playing his theme force. For those of you hoping against hope that this is the Siege Animantarax theme force, I'm sorry to burst your bubble. It's Tier 4 all chain gang all the way.

Syntherion - again 5/5 and all tier 4.

Goreshade 2. 4/4 All theme force. Two at tier 2 and Two at tier 3 (the difference is the withershadow combine and the benefit is to redeploy your warjacks).

Kreoss2. Only 2 lists but both are tier 4.

2/2 Kaelyssa players are playing the new theme force which does not allow you to run or charge turn 1 and has a bajillion arcanists. Both Tier 4.

And the only one that surprises me - Both Kaya2 players are in theme. They both picked different theme forces too but both went to Tier 4.

And then close but no cigar are:

Butcher 2 - Different from previous mentions the tier varies, everyone is at least tier 2 with 5 tier 3s and a tier 4. Out of 8 lists there is 1 player who isn't running Doom Reaver spam. He is Liang Yan from Team China.

Butcher 2
Butcher 2 -6
Juggernaut +7
Sylys Wyshnalyrr +2
Doom Reavers +6
Greylord Escort +2
Iron Fang Pikemen (max) +8
Black Dragon UA +2
Widowmakers +4
Eiryss 2 +3
Iron Fang Kovnik +2
Kovnik Andrei Malakov +3
Beast-09 +11
Man-O-War Drakhun (no mount) +4
Saxon Orrik +2

I'm not sure I like it. Don't get me wrong I love Butcher2. Beast 09 with Malakov means he gets the extra speed whether or not Butcher kills something in melee but it also means he doesn't get the hit buff (which carries over into the feat attacks) and unlike conferred rage you can't stack Redline and Rage. You do however always get enough focus to give Beast a full allocation though. I like the rest of the list.

Xerxis1 - Once again only 1 player has bucked the trend and played this caster out of theme (out of 12 total lists)

Mike O'Brien (Captain) Skorne
Xerxis 1
Xerxis 1 -5
Aptimus Marketh +3
Tiberion +11
Basilisk Krea +4
Paingiver Task Master +2
Agonizer +2
Cataphract Cetrati (max) +11
Cataphract Incindiarii (max) +9
Gatorman Posse (max) +9
Tyrant Commander & Standard Bearer +3
Swamp Gobbers +1

I don't think it's worth breaking theme for the changes. Unlike Butcher2 every list is tier 2. You guys are all missing out on sweet advance deploy Reiver Catapults.

Doomshaper1 - Again one brave soul (out of 6) is running him out of theme. The rest are tier 4.

Hoarluk 1 -7
Troll Axer +6
Earthborn Dire Troll +10
Mulg The Ancient +12
Runebearer +2
Krielstone (min) +3
Stone Scribe Elder +1
Sons of Bragg +6
Trollkin Warders (max) +8
Fell Caller Hero +3
Janissa Stonetide +3
Whelps +2
Sorcerer +1

Warders are nice. Sons of Bragg are nice. Is it worth it? Evidently some French guy thinks so.

There is one Stryker2 theme force (out of 2 lists), Tier 2. 100% of the one Constance Blaize lists are in theme, Tier 4.

There are 3 Deneghra2 theme forces. All the ones with the Cephalyx. (This accounts for all appearances of Cephalyx at the WTC). That's 3 out of 15 lists. All Tier 4.

1/4 Grissel1 lists are the Blood of Brag theme force with all the Kriel Warriors and only light beasts. It's Tier 4.

1/9 Issyria lists are the Dawnbringers theme force at Tier 4.

4/6 Baldur2 lists are the very exciting theme force with the cheaper Woldwatchers where nothing ever dies. All Tier 4.

2/5 Calandra lists are the theme force with the elemental lights. Both Tier 3.

1/2 Aurora lists is tier 4.

1/17 Morvahna2 lists is in theme. Tier 2

1/1 Iron Mother players is playing Carrier Group although it is assimilator spam, not double prime axiom and tier 3.

The 1 Caine1 player is playing Sons of the Tempest with two gun mage units and 5 hunters. Tier 4.

4/11 Vyros2 players are in theme. 1 in Tier2 and the rest at tier 4.

1/8 Kreoss3 players is in theme but is still forgoing the benefit of having double Vengers. Tier 4 does give cheaper melee heavies and he has taken 3 of those. (It's Germany Red if you are looking for the player).

2/4 Barnabas players are at Tier 4.

1/17 Krugar2 players is playing his theme force at Tier 4. It's not wake of destruction with the wolds and Eiryss1 either, it's Devourer's Host which has Ravagers with +2 speed turn1 and warpwolves with advance move. No stones and no druids but jamming with Krugar2 seems strong and your Ravager units all start with corpse tokens. Might catch some people off guard. This list is the brainchild of one Andrew Galea if you were curious.

1/5 Butcher1 players is playing Claws of the Dragon (black dragons). Tier 3.

1/6 Vayl1 players is playing her theme force (double hex hunters). Tier 4.

1/5 Zaal players is in theme. Tier 4.

And that is it for theme forces.

Total Numbers
Tier 1 - 0
Tier 2 - 17
Tier 3 - 10
Tier 4 - 67


It's clear that some theme forces are having a significant impact on the meta. Theme forces are interesting in that a 100% play record isn't a bad thing. If it makes a caster playable at a tournament level then it is excellent. On the one hand I'm not sure there would be more than one chinese player taking Butcher2 if it wasn't for his theme force but on the other hand having 25 tier 4 Vayl2 lists is probably a sign that that theme force is too good.I don't think you can say the same thing about Kaelyssa's theme force though or Goreshade2s.

I'm really tired and not well and I'm not sure how coherent that was so I may come back and tidy it up tomorrow.

Useless WTC Stats part V

Battle Engines. Do they exist? I have been informed that they do. Will they be at the WTC however is a different question.

There is exactly one Storm Strider at the WTC and it's in the afforementioned crazy Haley1 list from the Czech Republic.

Haley 1 -5
Squire +2
Sentinel +4
Storm Strider +9
Stormblade Captain +2
Anastasia di Bray +2
Stormblade Infantry +5
Stormblade Officer and Standard +3
Silverline Stormguard (max) +9
Storm Tower +2
Storm Tower +2
Arcane Tempest Gun Mages +6
Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer +2
Tempest Blazers (min) +6

The list is bring brought by Josef Skladanka and despite me making fun of it if you can drop it against no guns it's a very strong list.

There are 3 Gun Carriages. Irusk2, Vlad1 and Butcher3. The Irusk and Vlad lists are fairly standard aside from including a gun carriage but the Butcher list is not. I was going to spotlight the Butcher list but it's different not because it's jank but because it has all the support models and then a couple of points on fighting dudes. I like the Devastator Butcher list more.

There are 14 Vessels of Judgement. That this is the most popular battle engine (Spoiler Alert!) will come as no great surprise to anyone. 9 of the 14 are in Harbinger lists 2 in this excellent list from Maudlin:

Harbinger -5
Devout +5
Hierophant +2
Exemplar Errants (max) +8
Exemplar Errant UA +2
Horgenhold Forge Guard (max) +8
Attendant Priest +2
Visgoth Rhoven & Honor Guard +4
Exemplar Errant Seneschal +2
Rhupert Carvolo +2
The Covenant of Menoth +2
Vessel of Judgement +9
Vessel of Judgement +9

Forge Guard with Harbinger are something I have fallen in love with of late, they really help solidify some of her hordes match ups where otherwise her list can be a little pillowfisted against a beast brick and those lists often use spells to help clear infantry so having two spell immune units is fantastic. At the same time they don't weaken significantly the list against Cryx because they can still kill a ton of infantry and you can run the list in waves, first using martyrdom and tough on the errants unit and then once they have died down on the second forge guard wave. Having no jacks on Harbinger really allows her to go nuts on Martyrdom too and Rhoven plus the Vessels really completes the anti cryx package making the list able to shred infantry and pick out important solos (like the Blood Hag).

Other than Harbinger there are two in Kreoss1 lists, two in Feora2 lists and one in a Severius1 list. This battle engine though is just flat out amazing so you can really take it anywhere.

Wraith Engines - there is only one Wraith Engine. It's in a Skarre1 list from Norway Red.

Skarre 1
Skarre 1 -6
Skarlock Thrall +2
Helldiver +3
Helldiver +3
Wraith Engine +9
Bane Knights (max) +10
Bane Knights (max) +10
Blackbane's Ghost Raiders (max) +9
Satyxis Blood Witches (max) +6
Satyxis Blood Hag +2
Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls +2

I like Rob's version of this list better but this is still a strong list. You go everything incorporeal the turn before you feat and hit their army. Incorporeal delivers your army, you hit absurdly hard and accurately and then you have the feat ARM bonus next turn to keep you alive. The Bane Knights can't go incorporeal but if you can keep most of the unit safe you can make your opponent chose between triggering vengeance or killing none of them.

Arcantrik Forge Generator - none. No one is running any. It's a decent battle engine but it doesn't fit in a Vyross2 griffin spam list.

There are 4 Celestial Fulcrums. 3 are in Baldur2 lists which I have been reliably informed makes him a good Cryx match up. There is also one in a Mohsar list.

Sweden Epic: Johan Dyrling (Alternate) Circle Orboros
Mohsar 1
Mohsar -5
Woldwatcher +5
Woldwyrd +5
Megalith +11
Celestial Fulcrum +9
Druids of Orboros +7
Druids of Orboros Overseer +2
Shifting Stones +2
Tharn Bloodtrackers (max) +8
Nuala, the Huntress +2
Gallows Grove +1
Victor Pendrake +2

I am too tired to understand the beast package in this list. Or Why the Fulcrum is here (other than it's not a bad piece really). Also I never played Mohsar in circle so my insights are limited other than mirage and curse of shadows really turns on bloodtrackers and is also good on Megalith. Also pillars are annoying.

There are no Thrones of Everblight. I only really play mine with Thagrosh1 and Rhyas. With no Rhyas and 3 Thagrosh1 lists (one of which is that odd one from Scotland with the Hex Hunters) it is perhaps not too surprising that there are no thrones at the WTC.

Siege Animantarax - 0. Frankly 1 would have been a shock, especially after no thrones.

There are 2 War Wagons. One in Grissel2 and one in Grim1.

I have not played enough Grim1 to tell you much about this list other than it seems good with Grim's feat.

Grim 1 -6
Strom Troll +5
Troll Impaler +5
Dire Troll Bomber +10
Fell Caller Hero +3
War Wagon +9
Sons of Bragg +6
Swamp Gobbers +1
Trollkin Fennblades (max) +8
Fennblades UA +2
Scattergunners (min) +5
Scattergunner UA +2

The other list is a fairly standard Grissel2 build other than the War Wagon:

Grissel 2 -6
Runebearer +2
Troll Impaler +5
Pyre Troll +5
War Wagon +9
Fell Caller Hero +3
Horthol +5
Long Riders (min) +7
Trollkin Warders (max) +8
Trollkin Warders (max) +8
Krielstone (min) +3
Stone Scribe Elder +1

Still I like it. Extra knock down in that list is good.

What does this mean for battle engines in the meta? - that sounds like a really interesting question but it isn't. Good battle engines are being played in multiple lists. Battle engines with specific synergies are being used as key pieces in lists that use those synergies and the bad battle engines are not seeing play at all. It's not like a colossal which costs significantly more and therefore tends to have a greater impact on lists.

I'll add some more Gargantuan musings because I just noticed somethning. There are 2 Mammoth lists. Here they are:

Martin Ščepán (Slovakia)
Makeda 1 -5
Basilisk Krea +4
Cyclops Raider +5
Mammoth +20
Cataphract Cetrati (max) +11
Nihilators (max) +8
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) +2
Extoller Soulward +2
Feralgeist +1
Mortitheurge Willbreaker +2

Jaden Liu (China)
Makeda 1 -5
Basilisk Drake +4
Cyclops Raider +5
Mammoth +20
Cataphract Cetrati (max) +11
Nihilators (max) +8
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) +2
Tyrant Commander & Standard Bearer +3
Extoller Soulward +2

Two lists does not a good sample size make but these lists are almost identical. This I think is a thing. My non-skorny analysis is that the Mammoth looks like a late game piece, early on contributing with ranged attacks and then getting defenders ward after the Cetrati have been dimished. I also think the plan is here to feat, charge the Cetrati into whatever can kill the Mammoth and then do it again. I like it. I think the most interesting thing here is that you are looking at 50% of the Gargantuans at  the WTC and they are acting like colossals. Contributing with ranged attacks and getting into melee in the late game.

What about the Woldwraths?
Hungary Green: Rudolf Edlmayer
Baldur 1 -6
Megalith +11
Woldwarden +9
Woldwrath +20
Druids of Orboros +7
Druids of Orboros Overseer +2
Blackclad Wayfarer +2
Shifting Stones +2
Shifting Stones +2
Stone Keeper +1

Poland Reckless: Michal Konieczny "Gobos"
Baldur 1 -6
Woldwrath +20
Druids of Orboros +7
Druids of Orboros Overseer +2
Tharn Bloodtrackers (max) +8
Nuala, the Huntress +2
Farrow Slaughterhousers +6
Farrow Slaughterhousers +6
Gatorman Witch Doctor +3
Victor Pendrake +2

Both Baldur1. He has no ARM buff for them but then again being spell warded makes that difficult. These don't look like standard colossal lists, both lists look to do something with the animus. Both are here because of synergies specific to the Woldwrath and not just because the lists wants a big piece that's hard to kill.

What's the conclusion on Gargantuans? I don't really have one. I think the main thing that we can say is that they are harder to put into a list than colossals. You need to squeeze every point that you can out of them. You could call that being overcosted, I would. It also seems though that they are viable with specific casters which is something. Sorry for ending on a downer. Here are some dogs copying a baby

Useless WTC Stats Part IV

More things you never wanted to know about the WTC lists!

Bog Trog Shamblers. There are 7 units in the WTC two are in Rickards (Arleharan's) Rask list and that is a bonkers combination. You can spend Bog Trogs off the other unit and they are pretty good with Rage and against a caster either without focus or paralyzed. There are 6 other lists with Bog Trog Shamblers and I'm going to run through them quickly,

The first one is in Traishy's Madrak2 list. I've kind of steered away from talking about the Australian lists because I don't want to give away our secret Australia tech so I won't say too much except that this is my favourite troll list at the WTC. Next is Gerry Nolan's Kallus list which I have mentioned. Ignite can go on the unit at they get corpse tokens both from the stuff that dies and the incubii created by the feat.

Number 3 is a very strange Thagrosh1 list from Scotland.
Thagrosh 1
Thagrosh 1 -5
Carnivean +11
Scythean +9
Scythean +9
Raek +4
Naga Nightlurker +5
Shepherd +1
Shepherd +1
Blighted Nyss Hex Hunters (max) +8
Gatorman Bokor & Bog Trog Shamblers +6
Feralgeist +1

I have played a ton of Thagrosh1 when I was playing Legion consistently he was a caster I put a lot of effort into figuring out, I've played a ton of different builds but nothing really like this one. In the core there is a Carni, two Scytheans and a Naga. It's really strong against Haley2 with a Stormwall and that's something I've played a fair bit of but the Hex Hunters and the Shamblers are different. Even though the hex hunters have hunter they don't actually ignore the defensive bonus from fog of war because that only works on ranged attacks not magical attacks and though Thagrosh has a damage buff spell it's faction only so you can't put it on the Bog Trogs. You can't put wraithbane on the Bokur either because it's faction only or Spiny Growth him. I have to assume that he's teching for a specific match up or trying to sure up a weakness against something but I can't pick it.

List 4 is from Sweden and it's a massive list in this format.

Morvahna 1
Morvahna 1 -6
Gorax +4
Warpwolf Stalker +10
Warpwolf Stalker +10
Druid Wilder +2
Shifting Stones +2
Shifting Stones +2
Stone Keeper +1
Gatorman Witch Doctor +3
Swamp Gobbers +1
Gatorman Bokor & Bog Trog Shamblers +6
Blackclad Wayfarer +2
Blackclad Wayfarer +2
Tharn Bloodtrackers (max) +8
Nuala, the Huntress +2
Gallows Grove +1\

There are plusses and minuses to having the shamblers here, you can't leave the blood trackers undead because then you get no corpse tokens so you don't get to abuse tough and Regrowth but turning them undead auto rallies them - http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?158795-Zombify-question&p=2011332&viewfull=1#post2011332 (Infernal Ruling as the wording on undead is ambiguous when it comes to rallying). Other than that it has double Stalkers and a Gorax and double Blackclads which in this case can be used to extend the threat range of your shambler unit. In addition to charging stalkers and there are the obligatory double shifting stones. In a format where you can hide this list from purification it is massive. The only downside is that there isn't a great Restoration target but that's just fine on a Stalker if nothing else.

List 5 is from the other Sweden team and it's Rickard Nilsson's rask list. Double Shamblers double spitters. 2 units of Posse and one of ambushers for corpse tokens.

The last Shambler list is a Zaal list.
Zaal -5
Basilisk Krea +4
Cyclop Brute +5
Aptimus Marketh +3
Gatorman Bokor & Bog Trog Shamblers +6
Nihilators (max) +8
Nihilators (max) +8
Tyrant Commander & Standard Bearer +3
Venator Reivers (min) +5
Venator Reivers UA +2
Ancestral Guardian +3
Ancestral Guardian +3
Ancestral Guardian +3
Paingiver Task Master +2

In addition to being the only Zaal list with Shamblers (there are 4 other Zaal lists, one is a theme force, another has double Slaughterhousers and no Shamblers) it is the only Skorne list at the whole WTC with Venator Reivers. For those who don't understand the synergy models with last stand are destroyed, not removed from play. They still generate tokens for the feat and still generate corpse tokens for the Bokur. In addition models are not destroyed until the end of the turn so you can attack with last standed shamblers (it only requires friendly models) and then remove them to buy attacks or boost with the Bokur who also benefits from last stand.

Now some quick minions analysis.
Swamp Gobbers 51
Feralgeist 17
Gobber Tinker 16
Gatorman Posse 36
Dahlia and Skarath 2
Wrong Eye and Snapjaw 10
Rorsh and Brine 1
Brin and Lug 0 - no love for the bear, not even in Borka2, possibly because there are no Borkas of any incarnation at the tournament.

I want to look at the Rorsh and Brine list.

You'll be shocked to learn that it is a Deneghra1 list:
Deneghra 1 -5
Skarlock Thrall +2
Deathripper +4
Deathripper +4
Cylena Raefyll & Nyss Hunters (max) +10
Sea Dog Crew (max) +8
Mr. Walls +2
Lord Rockbottom +2
Master Gunner Dougal MacNaile +2
Orin Midwinter +2
Rorsh & Brine +9
Warwitch Siren +2
Warwitch Siren +2
Pistol Wraith +3
Pistol Wraith +3

I like it. There is a minimum of fuss on the Pirate unit. You can't tough and money shot on the same turn so there is none of the stuff that helps them with tough. Dougal improves all your shooting and has a quad iron (something people often forget). Rorsh and Brine have a great native threat range and Deneghra helps them hit and hit hard.

Of the 10 appearences of Wrong Eye and Snapjaw only twice do they appear with a bull snapper. Once in a Maelok list and once in a Gorten list. It's the other "pure Searforge" player Sankha Amarakoon. No Thor in this list but the Earthbreaker can live without Thor in a Gorten list. Spiny Growth is strong both on the Earthbreaker and on Gorten himself. Helping him get forwards for a good feat without dying.

There are 38 lists with a Spawning Vessel. 30 of those lists do not have a shredder, of those 30 lists 24 have a unit to feed the pot, 6 do not, possibly the players are going to kill their own crew and make two lessers earning them a point or possibly they are going to try and capture enemy corpses. 3 are in Saeryn lists but the other 3 are in Vayl2 theme forces where they are required. There are 25 Vayl2 theme forces in the WTC out of 25 Vayl2 lists. A surprising number of lists without Shredders had hex hunters though (13 to be exact). It's not a combination I like, not a huge fan of killing hex hunters to make shredders because you are losing points. Although they may just find that their Angels are fine without tenacity. Also I understand that the points are tight after you have included your requisite 5 heavies.

Two players are playing Kaelyssa and they are both playing her awesome new theme force, the theme force formerly known as Hail Hydra. They are running 13 arcanists between them (7 in one list 6 in the other). One of them Andre Suwanda of Switzerland is also running the only Hydra in the WTC. He is also running 3 Manticores. Despite playing in Sydney with Dylan and Jeff and having the two people I play most against both playing Ret (at least in the past) I had to look up what a Manticore was. It has covering fire and a Range 12 POW 12 with an AOE 3. It also can spend a focus to gain +3 strength and the arcanist bonus on top takes it to P+S 20. Unless you take out the Generator. Both lists contain a Manticore and they make up the totality of Manticores at the WTC. (In fairness the theme force precludes the Vyre jacks so no Banshee for the Kae players).

There are 4 Defenders at the WTC and all 4 are marshalled to gun mages. All 4 lists also include Arlen Strangeways. 3 are Haley2 lists and one is a Siege list. The Siege list also includes a journeyman running a Charger. One of two chargers at the WTC (the other as perviously mentioned is being run by Allison Jakes). The Siege list is Marin Polák's of Slovakia. Of the 50 journeyman warcasters (i.e. the ones actually called that not the character ones) there is only one more running a jack. It's in Craig Conroy's list and he's running a Sentinal (it's the Haley1 double colossal list).

Lastly Shifting Stones are pretty ubiquitous but I'm more interested in where there are no shifting stones. There are 16 lists with only a single unit of shifting stones and only 7 units without any shifting stones.

1. James Moorhouse's Morvahna2 list
2. Dirk Pintjens of Belgium Heron's Morvahna2 list
3. Brett Wilkie's (England Prime) Morvahna2 list
4. Teemu Aro (Finland Blue) Morvahna2 list
5. Janne Mikkola (Finland White) Morvahna 2 list
6. Guns (I assume it's Guns, unless there is a different Andrew Galea playing Warmachine) is running a Kruegar2 theme force with no units of shifting stones.
7. Lastly a Baldur1 list from Michal Konieczny of Poland Reckless (the defending champions).

I'll put down that Baldur1 list because I think it's interesting

Baldur 1 -6
Woldwrath +20
Druids of Orboros +7
Druids of Orboros Overseer +2
Tharn Bloodtrackers (max) +8
Nuala, the Huntress +2
Farrow Slaughterhousers +6
Farrow Slaughterhousers +6
Gatorman Witch Doctor +3
Victor Pendrake +2

Druids with the Woldwrath and Victor pendrake are interesting at least. The main thing this list is doing though is abusing no knock down and tough. Slaughterhousers are tough and the Witch doctor can make the bloodtrackers or druids tough as well. Stone Skin also works on the druids ranged attacks as it is a bonus to strength and not just to damage.