Sunday, March 8, 2015

Lylyth1 ADR

First things - there is officially a Thrullg in my Lylyth2 list. Body & Soul is becoming common enough that dodge, dip, duck, dive & dodge is becoming less of a real option but also I realised that I play Vayl1. I'm only ever going to drop Lylyth2 once, maybe twice if I come up against multiple EARTHBREAKERs (it has happened), I can afford to have 3 dead points in the list.

on to Lylyth

Lylyth, Herald of Everblight (*6pts)
* Naga Nightlurker (5pts)
* Shredder (2pts)
* Seraph (8pts)
* Typhon (12pts)
Blighted Nyss Hex Hunters (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
* Bayal, Hound of Everblight (3pts)
Strider Blightblades (Leader and 5 Grunts) (6pts)
Spawning Vessel (Leader and 5 Grunts) (3pts)
Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew (Leader and 1 Grunt) (1pts)
Blighted Nyss Shepherd (1pts)
Incubus (5pts)
The Forsaken (2pts)

Specialists
* Scythean (9pts)
* Scythean (9pts)
The Forsaken (2pts)

I have been playing a fair amount of this list in less competitive settings for the last couple of weeks. The list is legit, you could take it to a tournament. The question is always going to be though - does the specialists give you something that you couldn't get just playing Vayl1. I don't think it does.

Let's go through what it does do:

Hex hunters are bonkers with Lylyth1. The unit is already incredible for 8 points, boosting both attack rolls and adding parasite into the mix means that they will obliterate whatever they hit and with Ad and Spd 7 they are often in position to get an alpha strike. The Blight blades help a lot with this plan. When you are out-threatened you can bring the blight blades in from the side and in addition to killing things they are able to pin things in place and force your opponent to dedicated resources to them which then aren't going forwards.

The blight blades are absolute stars in this list. I heard some talk about them on muse on minis, about getting them in Lylyth's feat or Kallus' feat and dark guidance - it's not going to happen, especially with Lylyth. If the stars align you may be able to get a couple of them in your feat, take advantage of the critical grievous wounds on their weapons but more often you are better off putting the Hex hunters at the edge of your control area which will give you a few extra inches of distance for your caster. Def 15 is a problem, stealth can be a problem and even when you kill the blight blades you just create incubii. Not only that but it is difficult to avoid giving them targets. Much like in my Vayl1 list you are punished by clumping your models with Typhon and Bayal sprays, Seraph strafe etc. I believe the right choice is to spread your models but just to avoid giving them anything juicy. That said every game I have used them I have picked something up. UAs, solos, Holt... They are incredibly easy to forget. It's also easy to misjudge the 15ish inches they com in from the side. Then you have to take into account scenarios like incursion. Combining these guy with the Ad Hex hunters and the follow up of Typhon gives you a really strong scenario game.

Incubus - In theory they replace the blight blades but the Def 15/stealth/back field combination actually makes it so that the blight blades don't die that quickly. Often I end up replacing a mix of Hex hunters and blight blades. For some reason the hex hunters tend to die in droves although that might be because they do so much damage that your opponent just can't afford to keep them alive.

The Seraph and Naga are in theory support beasts but they actually do a whole lot of work in this list. With parasite they can kill a heavy at range, when you add in Typhon the ranged ability of this battlegroup is incredible if restricted in its range. Typhon should be self exlanatory. Free charges, parasite, additional dice sprays. You can boost on top of Lylyth's feat and he is just otherwise incredible.

Assassination - Typhon is the main assassination threat but there are a lot of other angles. Incubi pop out in odd positions, the Seraph is a legitimate threat, the Naga will reliably critical giving you 4 dice damage on living casters under Lylyth's feat. You can also get a lot of Hex Hunter shots if they are still alive. one thing people tend to not take into account well are the threat ranges you get from being able to battle wizard and/or cast spells at deeper targets while engaged. While the Spawning Vessel is on the table it is always a threat. One of the other things to remember is that you can hold her feat. If your opponent puts some Nyss Hunters or Blood Trackers in threat of your Hex hunters go for it but if you aren't facing high Def infantry you can hold the feat until you are ready to assassinate.

Scenario - It's a combination of the pressure from AD Hex hunters, the presence of the blight blades and incubi in the back field and the exceptional short rage damage output of the list. You don't really want to be coming into the threat ranges of this list and it's threat ranges are really good with slipstream and Spd 7 troops.

Keeping Lylyth alive - the most obvious piece for that are the swamp Gobbers and while they are alive they should be dropping a cloud in front of Lylyth. There are other pieces though most turns you will not "need" slipstream for your threat ranges, go forwards, feat and/or shoot and spell something and then once the Hex hunters have activated slipstream her back. The Seraph and Naga are also excellent pieces for blocking LOS and charge lanes since they are going to be making ranged attacks anyway. She should always have tenacity on her and you need to look for defensive terrain. Walls are ideal but it's incredibly rare to find them where you need them. A forest in the middle of the table is ideal but a hill will help, trenches are making comeback with the new terrain placement rules and are really good.

Modules:
Naga + Blightblades (11)
Hex Hunters (11)
Hex hunters + incubus + pot _ shepherd (20)
Blight Blades + Incubus (11)
Bayal + blight blades (9)

Monday, March 2, 2015

Discussing Warmachine Online

I'm really tired right now so I can't tell if this stroke of brilliance that I've just had is actually brilliant or just an actual stroke but here it goes anyway:

The reason why discussions of warmachine online are so toxic is because most of the participants aren't trying to have a discussion they are trying to "win" an argument.

It's something that we often get instinctively in person because it's kind of hard to ignore the fact at that point that you are talking to another person. That that person has an opinion and that ignoring that is a dick move. In person we try and understand where the person who disagrees with us is coming from. And then try to come to some kind of middle ground, something we at least vaguely agree on, or to come to the point where we go, yeah I understand your point but I disagree. It hit me when I was reading some posts on the MOM forums. I could see one poster in particular trying to characterise the opposing argument in the worst possible way and I was reading it and thinking - you're a moron, that's not going to accomplish anything but pissing people off. If you actually want to have a productive or useful discussion you need to try and see things from your opponents point of view, the issue is complex, they aren't 100% wrong and you 100% right. But that guy knows that, he isn't trying to have a real discussion he is just trying to "win" which means everyone loses.

If you have a discussion where everyone is looking for all the ways you are wrong, all the problems in each others positions you just get a bunch of hostility and entrenched bullshit.

If instead you have a discussion where you look for the things the people who disagree with you have right you can actually move forwards and you can actually have a real discussion. You move together and come to an agreement or at least you get to - this is where we disagree and I respect that.

I think the general format of forum discussions and online interaction promote the first kind of discussion and I think that in a lot of places the atmosphere has become so toxic as to cause people who want to have a real discussion to leave or cease joining in.

That's enough serious Tort for now. Here is Hans Moleman getting hit in the crotch with a football:


Current Legion Lists

Since I'm putting stuff up here again for the club league I thought I'd throw up my Legion lists.
I am currently all in on Vayl1 and I've been finding that she has a strong game against basically anything. Drop her against Cryx, against Khador, Mercs, whatever she can handle a lot of things. The main this she doesn't want to see is a lot of boostable guns. The earthbreaker is an issue but I have found that you can often scare off an earthbreaker player with your other list. I have yet to see an Ossrum player willing to drop that list against Lylyth2.

Vayl, Disciple of Everblight - WB: +6
-    Typhon - PC: 12
-    Scythean - PC: 9
-    Scythean - PC: 9
-    Shredder - PC: 2
-    Seraph - PC: 8
-    Naga Nightlurker - PC: 5
The Forsaken - PC: 2
The Forsaken - PC: 2
Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1
Strider Blightblades - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6

I love this list. It's tuned to kill everything within 9" of Vayl. The Blight blades are in my opinion a fantastic addition to the list. The Def 15 and stealth is such a huge deal and their ability to pick up important models your opponent thinks are safe is fantastic. I have been getting good use out of these even against better players mainly because you can't really afford to bunch up your army against Vayl.

Lylyth, Shadow of Everblight - WB: +5
-    Succubus
-    Ravagore - PC: 10
-    Ravagore - PC: 10
-    Zuriel - PC: 10
-    Naga Nightlurker - PC: 5
-    Shredder - PC: 2
Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1
Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1
Totem Hunter - PC: 3
Blighted Ogrun Warspears - Leader & 4 Grunts: 8
-    Warspear Chieftan - PC: 2
Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew - Leader & 1 Grunt: 1

This is a new thing I am trying out. I had been playing a list very similar to this but with the warspears out and striders in about 2 years ago (Zuriel was a third Ravagore). When I decided to cracking Lylyth2 out again I had a quick chat to Ben Leeper at CANCON and he said to try warspears. So far they have been pretty good. The aim problem I have is that I have become a Vayl1 player with an off list so this list isn't getting the work out it should have which I really need to do if I want to fine tune it for me. I've already had two significant feat failures and the fact is that Lylyth2 is still a caster who struggles if her feat does not go well.

Lylyth, Herald of Everblight (*6pts)
* Naga Nightlurker (5pts)
* Shredder (2pts)
* Seraph (8pts)
* Typhon (12pts)
Blighted Nyss Hex Hunters (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts) 
* Bayal, Hound of Everblight (3pts)
Strider Blightblades (Leader and 5 Grunts) (6pts)
Spawning Vessel (Leader and 5 Grunts) (3pts)
Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew (Leader and 1 Grunt) (1pts)
Blighted Nyss Shepherd (1pts)
Incubus (5pts)
The Forsaken (2pts)

Specialists
* Scythean (9pts)
* Scythean (9pts)
The Forsaken (2pts)

I always liked Lylyth1 and with ADR becoming a thing I have been mucking around with her trying to find a list I like. I think this is it. You need to be able to keep Lylyth alive which is harder than it looks but her feat turns are incredibly brutal. The specialists are transformative, I can bring in one Scythean or double, the Hex hunters + Thrullg making a great one Scythean sub or Thrullg + blight blades or go for the double swap and take out the infantry to throw in a beast brick. The Naga can also go with a bit of infantry. I really like it I just need to make a Thagrosh1 list that I like to pair it with which is harder said than done. The latest change I am comptemplating is Bayal out for a thrullg. It makes Lylyth my drop against body and soul but I am fine with that. This list is amazing, Lylyth1 is a blast to play and ADR does so much for her.

Thagrosh, Prophet of Everblight (*5pts)
* Naga Nightlurker (5pts)
* Shredder (2pts)
* Carnivean (11pts)
* Scythean (9pts)
* Scythean (9pts)
Sacral Vault (9pts)
Sacral Vault (9pts)
Blighted Nyss Shepherd (1pts)

Specialists
Blighted Ogrun Warspears (Leader and 4 Grunts) (8pts)
* Warspear Chieftan (2pts)
Blighted Nyss Shepherd (1pts)
Strider Deathstalker (2pts)
Strider Deathstalker (2pts)
Forsaken (2pts)
Thrullg (3pts)

I fucking hate this list. I can make decent 50 point lists for Thagrosh1 but they have glaring weaknesses. I don't want to play against a lot of RFP, multi wound, Haley2, Body & Soul... Whatever. You'd think that you could use ADR to fix the weaknesses but you just can't. I want a Naga I want a Thrullg, I want to be able to go beast heavy to be able to power my way through Haley2, I want to be able to sub out the carnivean for infantry. I feel like I've tried to make a list to handle everything and I've ended up with a list that is shit against everything. Expect this list to change. 

Thagrosh, the Messiah - WB: +3
-    Raek - PC: 4
-    Raek - PC: 4
-    Scythean - PC: 9
-    Scythean - PC: 9
-    Scythean - PC: 9
-    Shredder - PC: 2

The Forsaken - PC: 2
The Forsaken - PC: 2

Blighted Nyss Legionnaires - Leader & 9 Grunts: 6
-    Captain Farilor & Standard - Farilor & Standard 3
Spawning Vessel - Vessel & 6 Grunts: 3

Manifest destiny is amazing on Scytheans. The basics of the list are that I put the legionnaires in front of the beasts with Dragons Blood and minifeat to give me board position then the beasts go in and kill everything, I use the feat to pull back and generally jam a raek or two into anything important (with tenacity). I'm enjoying it. It might need a Seraph but I am very hesitant to make that change because without Incite or Parasite and Lylyth's feat the Seraph really struggles to do stuff. 

Anyway that's what I am currently playing. There is a strong temptation to go back to Vayl2 as a pair for Vayl1 but I don't feel like she is particularly strong in the current meta and I don't have the confidence I used to have in her.

Some lists I intend to try out:

Kallus, Wrath of Everblight (*5pts)
* Ravagore (10pts)* Ravagore (10pts)Blighted Ogrun Warmongers (Leader and 4 Grunts) (8pts)Blighted Ogrun Warspears (Leader and 4 Grunts) (8pts)* Warspear Chieftan (2pts)Blighted Ogrun Warspears (Leader and 4 Grunts) (8pts)* Warspear Chieftan (2pts)Spawning Vessel (Leader and 5 Grunts) (3pts)Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew (Leader and 1 Grunt) (1pts)Blighted Nyss Shepherd (1pts)Succubus (2pts)

Last time I tried playing Kallus seriously the warspear UA did not exist. Also Farilor did not exist I feel like the warspears being bigger threats might actually let the warmongers get some work done. That said there is a good chance that the unit becomes Farilor and Legionnaires. I do want to at least try the Warmongers again though. 

Absylona 2
 - Succubus
 - Carnivean
 - Ravagore x 2
 - Zuriel
 - Shredder x 2
Forsaken
Shepherd x 2

Deathstalker x 2

Another list that I hate. Here is the problem - so much of the list is predicated on Abby getting to charge and kill something and when your opponent just leaves their infantry 13" away from her the list is garbage. I really hate the Seraph when casters do nothing for it. It's amazing with Lylyth1 and Vayl1 but put it in this list and it's going to what - charge and be garbage pow? Put out some rat 5 pow 12s? I may give this list some more game time, I did win the one game I played with it but that's because my opponent failed to kill Zuriel and it turns out when Zuriel is SPD 8, has reach, is MAT 9 and POW 18 he will kill casters.

Rhyas, Sigil of Everblight (*6pts)
* Raek (4pts)
* Shredder (2pts)
* Typhon (12pts)
Blighted Nyss Swordsmen (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
* Blighted Nyss Swordsmen Abbot & Champion (0pts)
Blighted Ogrun Warmongers (Leader and 4 Grunts) (8pts)
Blighted Ogrun Warspears (Leader and 4 Grunts) (8pts)
* Warspear Chieftan (2pts)
Blighted Ogrun Warspears (Leader and 4 Grunts) (8pts)
* Warspear Chieftan (2pts)
Succubus (2pts)

This one is tier 4 - you get free upkeeps (don't really care), free Swordsmen UA, stealth turn 1 (semi relevant because of the next one) advance deploy Ogrun.

Sunday, March 1, 2015

League Points

Ed 2* - levitation
Theo 6
Anthony 9 - assassins cloak
Uli 6
Graham 5 - stone cold
Harry 7*

Waiting on the result from Harry and Ed as Ed was playing at Ed speed. That was 2 and a half hours ago though so the game may have finished by now.