Won the mangled metal/tooth and claw tournament today with Vayl2 and it has reinforced something that I'm noticing more and more about Warmachine and that is that you need at least one of your lists to have a good ranged game. You can mitigate this if you have a really strong jam list but I think that there are too many lists out there that will walk all over lists without guns. With Vayl2 if my opponents did not have either I always felt in complete control of the game. I feel the same way with Haley2, Saeryn and Vayl1. When denial lists are able to deny you without consequence they walk all over you. I'm still kind of surprised at the lack of guns that I have seen at local tournaments, the only gun heavy lists I have come accross were Ossyan lists and Vayl2 kind of owns that match up too. Maybe I should add denial to my list of things you need to be prepared for when coming into a tournament. You don't need a list to be as gun crazy as some of my Cygnar lists but you do need enough guns to make a denial list pay for what they deny you.
Just quickly on Jam - Cryx are the masters of Jam and good jam is also a strong counter to denial lists. If you get a sizable force in your opponents face quickly (I direct you in particular to the post just before this one and Scott Wray's Skarre1 list) then you can stop them from being able to use their denial tricks. With Haley2 in particular if you can force her to feat defensively then you are more than halfway to winning the match, allow her to feat offensively and you are out of the game. As a rule of thumb you have a strong jam list if you have a sizable force on or across the centre-line on turn 1 when you go first. Going back to Scott's list for a moment, there are two unit of Bloodgorgers at 22" and two units of satyxis raiders up to 30" across. Playing a Haley2 or a Deneghra2 against that list you are pretty much forced to feat turn 2 or run into charge range of those models. Otherwise come the Cryx players turn they get pretty much their entire army between your army and the nearest scoring zones and you lose on scenario. Against Vayl2 it makes it very hard to make use of adminition and refuge and still be relevant in scenario. Whereas if you aren't accross the table then I can refuge back and admonition and still be in scoring areas and if you have no guns to shoot my stuff then nothing of mine ever dies (every single model I lost today was to a ranged attack or from an action forced upon me by a ranged attack).
oh yeah!!!! ranged cryx!!!! :P
ReplyDeleteDeneghra + pirates has to be one of the scarier ranged lists around. You don't need a lot of guns though, you should have beaten me with the witch coven list you took in our practice game. You just need enough to take out key models and disrupt your opponents denial game, Witch Coven, arc node, Krakken and a couple of pistol wraiths is plenty. Excarnated Bile Thralls are probably enough, especially if you have a pistol wraith or two to death chill heavies. Scaverous has a great ranged game, particularly with Croes Cutthroats. And if you don't want to go ranged just jam.
DeleteI just realised that counter charge can also stuff up {admonition,refuge}, unless the model with {admonition,refuge} has reach and the model with counter charge doesn't. My bronzeback moves into melee with you, triggers admonition. Admonition is an advance so triggers counter charge, and you can't run away again.
ReplyDeleteI can't find the text for refuge, but I'm fairly sure its an advance as well.
Both are advances and both trigger counter charge. Refuge is a full advance though so I move 7" and then you factor in reach and the push. If I'm within 6" of anything then the trick isn't working and I'm going to lose that Angel. Previously Saeryn and Haley2 were my Skorne match ups. If you did not know how to counter denial then it can be a problem for skorne. Locker from the Sentry is also a problem for that list.
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